.. in the meantime, my ipod touch 2G has just been demoted by Apple because they claim its too old.
Good thing there is a custom IOS 4.3 firmware that I can use on my less than 2 years old device. If it wasn't for the hackers who created that firmware I'd be left in the dust by Apple.
How is the performance of 4.3 on the 2g touch? Going from 3.x to 4.2 made my iPod touch nearly unusable. It's so slow/laggy and apps crash all the time. I continually need to use sbsettings and kill active processes. The same apps worked great on 3.x. Too bad there's no way to downgrade. (I didn't save shsh blobs in time)
Good point, dcb. Android fragmentation is and has been a problem for Andriod. Among many other factors, this has been one of the main reasons why the Android Marketplace is weak.
re: anonymous at the top
Has this alleged "iOS fragmentation" hurt or in any way hindered iOS app development?
This is why the question of Android fragmentation has been asked. Not only that, but some new Android devices are still being made with old software, most likely never to be updated. Each new Apple hardware release has the newest OS and is prime for all forthcoming updates, guaranteed.
Overall, it's up to the developer of the iOS app to choose to support legacy hardware, and many devs choose to do just that. And yes, at the rate of mobile technology advancements, a 2 year old handheld device in said device's 3 year total lifespan (2008) is indeed legacy hardware.
I have yet to try the custom 4.3 firmware for the ipod touch 2G. Apple will not release IOS 4.3 for those older models. There's a custom IOS 3.X also available for our devices.
@dcp
"Don't know why you guys are talking about iOS when the question here is about android."
We like to make a counterpoint : Android does have fragmentation problems, but so does Apple, even if the blogosphere never speaks about it.
I'm not sure how much of a say devs have if they want to support legacy hardware (legacy meaning less than 2 years old devices these days).
All of my app that was updated for the latest IOS has stopped working on the older one ... since my touch 2G device is not updated by Apple anymore, it means I have to either buy a new device, or never update my apps ever again...
The problem is because mobile computers are now made by phone companies, and they don't want us to use their devices like a computer, they much prefer selling us locked down consoles every 2 years.
Apple can stay afloat of fragmentation because it doesn't have many devices and will discard older ones as it pleases, where Android has to support a lot more devices made by different companies, but for how long? There are already many ipad2 apps that won't work on the ipad1...
What are these "many exclusive iPad 2 apps" that are incompatible with the original iPad? Could you list a few of them here?
Also, I often see updates where the changes state something like "fixed iOS 3.x.x compatibility" so I know that devs can tweak their code to support this older OS market.
The latest iMovie only works on the ipad2, althought there is a hack to install it on the ipad1.
The ipad2 has twice power of the ipad1 (twice the CPU speed and twice the memory amount). Do you believe developers will not use it?
Just like Beatmaker2 only works on third generation devices, many newer apps will embrace the power of newest devices and will leave older ones in the dust, even if those devices are only 1 year older :P
"I know that devs can tweak their code to support this older OS market."
Yes it is possible, but not many of them does it. To make sure their app keeps compatibilty with older OSes, they must not update their apps to make use of the latest IOS undelying tech, like Core Midi.
Ok, so iMovie only works on iPad 2, just like the original release wasn't made to work on non-camera iDevices.
No offense, but instead of talking about the future when apps won't support both revs of iPad, you probably should have retracted your statement about "many apps" made specifically for iPad 2 because iMovie is the only one you could name.
And you're right, not all devs see the benefit of working to support legacy operating systems on iOS. My guess as to the reason would be going where the money is, as many iOS users update to the latest gen every couple of years if they are seriously interested in maximizing the usage of the platform, but it's still their choice, as it is yours to stick with your 2G iPod Touch.
This is kind of silly. Is fragmentation a pain to deal with? Sure, but what's the alternative - and what would be the disadvantages of the alternative?
A more useful question would be counterfactual. What's a better alternative to what's available now?
@Robert "you probably should have retracted your statement about "many apps" made specifically for iPad 2 because iMovie is the only one you could name."
You want me to retract because at this very moment I only named one title?... ok then, since you asked for it : Gyrosynth, Ethero synth, Photobooth, Facetime. If I'd include games the list would be longer.
Apps that uses the new gyroscope and camera on the ipad2 doesn't work on the ipad, but you don't need a camera to edit movies or just to see a video conference, yet iMovie and Facetime are locked to the ipad2.
So I guess you understand the reasons why I expect you to retract what you just said right?
"it's still their choice, as it is yours to stick with your 2G iPod Touch."
You are right, it is my choice to stick with my 2G ipod and not buy a new one knowing that will have to buy another one again in 2 years.
Do you know a lot of people still use the 1G? I still use my Palm T5 everyday.
Naturally, you chose the other camera apps or gyroscope apps, neither feature having anything to do with the CPU/GPU which was inherent in your original post. I retract nothing, and I am not aware of any exclusive to iPad 2 games that don't run on the original iPad, but I will take you up on your offer to enlighten everyone here.
I agree that it makes sense to me to run iMovie on an marginal iPad, and just import videos using the CCK or other means, but Apple apparently feels differently.
And for enabling a one-sided video conference software on an iPad without a camera? No, that's just lunacy.
And great— some people use older, outdated tech on a daily basis. Those people usually find that it meets their needs and probably aren't as prone to griping about it when it doesn't. If they want to be in on the latest cutting edge software they should probably dump that 1G and upgrade to a 4G.
I have a 6 year old Mac as my main computer because I can't afford to buy a new one right now, but I don't blame software developers and/or Apple if it can't do everything my friend's 2011 15" MBP can do.
"neither feature having anything to do with the CPU/GPU"
I never said it had to do only with the CPU/RAM, I said Apple claimed my touch 2G was too old, and that fragmentation does exists on IOS, but it doesn't affects the users the same way as Android.
"one-sided video conference software on an iPad without a camera"
Ever heard of security cameras or public broadcasts? or am I lunatic?
"on an marginal iPad" "some people use older, outdated tech on a daily basis"
See, You believe only some people are behind in tech. When cutting edge means getting a new 500+$ device every years or so just to replace a current working one because it was demoted for artificial/business reasons, you can expect a lot of people will use the old models (especially when they will be sold for really cheap). Do you buy a new mp3 player or laptop every two years if it hasn't broken?
"I have a 6 year old Mac as my main computer because I can't afford to buy a new one right now"
Laptop computer technology and MP3 technology is not moving at the breakneck pace that mobile technology is progressing, so no, clearly I don't buy new devices like this every couple of years. Still waiting for that list of iPad 2 specific games you mentioned, though. :)
Fragmentation on Android is referring to the fact that today, there are Android devices being sold as new with 1.6, 2.1, 2.3, and 3.0 among a few others I'm sure. Apple sells the latest and greatest today, and last years model goes to the refurb store until they're all gone.
That 2g is just not going to be able to do all the tricks that a current iPod Touch is capable of, regardless of camera or gyroscopes.
Should hardware and software development slow down or stop because of this? And if not, what is the solution then?
Why point the finger of fragmentation blame at iOS when answering the question posed in the original post? Is the App Store or it's users suffering at the hands of fragmentation like the Android Marketplace is?
With recent estimates of only 100,000 Xoom tablets sold since it was launched, why would a developer invest resources to focus on this tiny "fragment" of the market? Meanwhile, Apple is selling 100,000 iPads EVERY DAY. Doesn't seem like fragmentation of iOS is such a problem to me. $2b in payouts to iOS devs VS. $100m to Android devs in the same time frame.
@Robert "Laptop computer technology and MP3 technology is not moving at the breakneck pace that mobile technology is progressing"
Hmm I guess you are not aware that computers, laptops and mobile share the same technology and it is all moving at a breakneck pace.
"Still waiting for that list of iPad 2 specific games you mentioned"
Well you do your homework, you're the one who's denying there are games that doesn't work on the ipad1, and that there's going to be more of them in the coming months.. unless every developers in the world decides not to use the extra processing power in the ipad2?
"Apple sells the latest and greatest today, and last years model goes to the refurb store until they're all gone."
Not true, Apple keeps selling the old models in stores until there's no more left, and in that period they sell more old models because they are much cheaper (my source:futureshop/la source, ask your local stores).
"That 2g is just not going to be able to do all the tricks that a current iPod Touch is capable of"
How can you say that and still argue there is no fragmentation on IOS? ...
"Should hardware and software development slow down or stop because of this? And if not, what is the solution then?"
Either you create a platform and support it for many years (like a game console), or else it will become like computer games where you need to upgrade your graphic card every years to be able to play the latest games. Both methods have advantages and disadvantage : My 5 years old DS can play the newest games, but the graphic quality stays the same, where on fast evolving computers Crysis looks amazing. This goes for both IOS and Android.
"Is the App Store or it's users suffering at the hands of fragmentation like the Android Marketplace is?"
Yes they suffer when they can't use an app they purchased 2 years ago anymore because its been updated for the new system, and they need to buy a new one to use it again, just because the app store's owner said so.
"only 100,000 Xoom tablets sold since it was launched, why would a developer invest resources to focus on this tiny "fragment" of the market?"
Yeah you are right, why would developers invest time and resources to create software for OSX, Macintosh computers are only a tiny "fragment" of the market (which accounts for only 7% of all computers), meanwhile Microsoft sells 7 retail copies of Windows7 EVERY SECONDS (not counting OEM and pirated), according to your logic, developers should only support the most successful platform.
Comparing iOS to gaming consoles whose hardware is updated every 7 years? Well played.
Given several opportunities to back up your original statement, you provided no evidence about games that only work on iPad 2, and instead offered a mix of smoke and mirrors and straw-man arguments, going on and on about "the future" when you originally spoke of the present.
Apple has never used the "f" word to describe any aspect of their platform, whereas Google themselves did recently, and this is what sparked the broad discussion in the press, and the original post on this blog.
Overall, you've demonstrated in your comments that you have a very different idea of what fragmentation on Android refers to in the current debate, so I resign from this discussion.
Have a nice day and feel free to get the last word in, I won't be checking back. :)
Robert, I will take this opportunity to leave a last word, I've been following this thread and you discarded every titles Johnny said. There is fragmentation on both Android AND IOS, even if you won't admit this fact.
You live in a dream world, your arguments are nil.
Fragmentation does not exist on IOS. Google themselves said there is fragmentation on Android, but Steve Jobs never said there is fragmentation on IOS, so there, there is no fragmentation on IOS, deal with it.
20 comments:
...what about iOS fragmentation? 3.1.2 to 4.3.1 in just over a year
At least, if you develop for Android you get a choice of the lowest common denominator ie 1.6, 1.7 etc
You do not get the choice with XCode
cowers
.. in the meantime, my ipod touch 2G has just been demoted by Apple because they claim its too old.
Good thing there is a custom IOS 4.3 firmware that I can use on my less than 2 years old device. If it wasn't for the hackers who created that firmware I'd be left in the dust by Apple.
How is the performance of 4.3 on the 2g touch? Going from 3.x to 4.2 made my iPod touch nearly unusable. It's so slow/laggy and apps crash all the time. I continually need to use sbsettings and kill active processes. The same apps worked great on 3.x. Too bad there's no way to downgrade. (I didn't save shsh blobs in time)
Don't know why you guys are talking about iOS when the question here is about android. And yes, of course, android fragmentation is a huge problem.
Good point, dcb. Android fragmentation is and has been a problem for Andriod. Among many other factors, this has been one of the main reasons why the Android Marketplace is weak.
re: anonymous at the top
Has this alleged "iOS fragmentation" hurt or in any way hindered iOS app development?
This is why the question of Android fragmentation has been asked. Not only that, but some new Android devices are still being made with old software, most likely never to be updated. Each new Apple hardware release has the newest OS and is prime for all forthcoming updates, guaranteed.
Overall, it's up to the developer of the iOS app to choose to support legacy hardware, and many devs choose to do just that. And yes, at the rate of mobile technology advancements, a 2 year old handheld device in said device's 3 year total lifespan (2008) is indeed legacy hardware.
@Formal
I have yet to try the custom 4.3 firmware for the ipod touch 2G. Apple will not release IOS 4.3 for those older models. There's a custom IOS 3.X also available for our devices.
@dcp
"Don't know why you guys are talking about iOS when the question here is about android."
We like to make a counterpoint : Android does have fragmentation problems, but so does Apple, even if the blogosphere never speaks about it.
@Robert
"iOS app to choose to support legacy hardware"
I'm not sure how much of a say devs have if they want to support legacy hardware (legacy meaning less than 2 years old devices these days).
All of my app that was updated for the latest IOS has stopped working on the older one ... since my touch 2G device is not updated by Apple anymore, it means I have to either buy a new device, or never update my apps ever again...
The problem is because mobile computers are now made by phone companies, and they don't want us to use their devices like a computer, they much prefer selling us locked down consoles every 2 years.
Apple can stay afloat of fragmentation because it doesn't have many devices and will discard older ones as it pleases, where Android has to support a lot more devices made by different companies, but for how long? There are already many ipad2 apps that won't work on the ipad1...
What are these "many exclusive iPad 2 apps" that are incompatible with the original iPad? Could you list a few of them here?
Also, I often see updates where the changes state something like "fixed iOS 3.x.x compatibility" so I know that devs can tweak their code to support this older OS market.
@Robert
The latest iMovie only works on the ipad2, althought there is a hack to install it on the ipad1.
The ipad2 has twice power of the ipad1 (twice the CPU speed and twice the memory amount). Do you believe developers will not use it?
Just like Beatmaker2 only works on third generation devices, many newer apps will embrace the power of newest devices and will leave older ones in the dust, even if those devices are only 1 year older :P
"I know that devs can tweak their code to support this older OS market."
Yes it is possible, but not many of them does it. To make sure their app keeps compatibilty with older OSes, they must not update their apps to make use of the latest IOS undelying tech, like Core Midi.
Ok, so iMovie only works on iPad 2, just like the original release wasn't made to work on non-camera iDevices.
No offense, but instead of talking about the future when apps won't support both revs of iPad, you probably should have retracted your statement about "many apps" made specifically for iPad 2 because iMovie is the only one you could name.
And you're right, not all devs see the benefit of working to support legacy operating systems on iOS. My guess as to the reason would be going where the money is, as many iOS users update to the latest gen every couple of years if they are seriously interested in maximizing the usage of the platform, but it's still their choice, as it is yours to stick with your 2G iPod Touch.
This is kind of silly. Is fragmentation a pain to deal with? Sure, but what's the alternative - and what would be the disadvantages of the alternative?
A more useful question would be counterfactual. What's a better alternative to what's available now?
@Robert
"you probably should have retracted your statement about "many apps" made specifically for iPad 2 because iMovie is the only one you could name."
You want me to retract because at this very moment I only named one title?... ok then, since you asked for it : Gyrosynth, Ethero synth, Photobooth, Facetime. If I'd include games the list would be longer.
Apps that uses the new gyroscope and camera on the ipad2 doesn't work on the ipad, but you don't need a camera to edit movies or just to see a video conference, yet iMovie and Facetime are locked to the ipad2.
So I guess you understand the reasons why I expect you to retract what you just said right?
"it's still their choice, as it is yours to stick with your 2G iPod Touch."
You are right, it is my choice to stick with my 2G ipod and not buy a new one knowing that will have to buy another one again in 2 years.
Do you know a lot of people still use the 1G? I still use my Palm T5 everyday.
Naturally, you chose the other camera apps or gyroscope apps, neither feature having anything to do with the CPU/GPU which was inherent in your original post. I retract nothing, and I am not aware of any exclusive to iPad 2 games that don't run on the original iPad, but I will take you up on your offer to enlighten everyone here.
I agree that it makes sense to me to run iMovie on an marginal iPad, and just import videos using the CCK or other means, but Apple apparently feels differently.
And for enabling a one-sided video conference software on an iPad without a camera? No, that's just lunacy.
And great— some people use older, outdated tech on a daily basis. Those people usually find that it meets their needs and probably aren't as prone to griping about it when it doesn't. If they want to be in on the latest cutting edge software they should probably dump that 1G and upgrade to a 4G.
I have a 6 year old Mac as my main computer because I can't afford to buy a new one right now, but I don't blame software developers and/or Apple if it can't do everything my friend's 2011 15" MBP can do.
@Robert
"I am not aware"
Yeah that says a lot..
"neither feature having anything to do with the CPU/GPU"
I never said it had to do only with the CPU/RAM, I said Apple claimed my touch 2G was too old, and that fragmentation does exists on IOS, but it doesn't affects the users the same way as Android.
"one-sided video conference software on an iPad without a camera"
Ever heard of security cameras or public broadcasts? or am I lunatic?
"on an marginal iPad"
"some people use older, outdated tech on a daily basis"
See, You believe only some people are behind in tech. When cutting edge means getting a new 500+$ device every years or so just to replace a current working one because it was demoted for artificial/business reasons, you can expect a lot of people will use the old models (especially when they will be sold for really cheap). Do you buy a new mp3 player or laptop every two years if it hasn't broken?
"I have a 6 year old Mac as my main computer because I can't afford to buy a new one right now"
I guess that answers my previous question.
Laptop computer technology and MP3 technology is not moving at the breakneck pace that mobile technology is progressing, so no, clearly I don't buy new devices like this every couple of years. Still waiting for that list of iPad 2 specific games you mentioned, though. :)
Fragmentation on Android is referring to the fact that today, there are Android devices being sold as new with 1.6, 2.1, 2.3, and 3.0 among a few others I'm sure. Apple sells the latest and greatest today, and last years model goes to the refurb store until they're all gone.
That 2g is just not going to be able to do all the tricks that a current iPod Touch is capable of, regardless of camera or gyroscopes.
Should hardware and software development slow down or stop because of this? And if not, what is the solution then?
Why point the finger of fragmentation blame at iOS when answering the question posed in the original post? Is the App Store or it's users suffering at the hands of fragmentation like the Android Marketplace is?
With recent estimates of only 100,000 Xoom tablets sold since it was launched, why would a developer invest resources to focus on this tiny "fragment" of the market? Meanwhile, Apple is selling 100,000 iPads EVERY DAY. Doesn't seem like fragmentation of iOS is such a problem to me. $2b in payouts to iOS devs VS. $100m to Android devs in the same time frame.
@Robert
"Laptop computer technology and MP3 technology is not moving at the breakneck pace that mobile technology is progressing"
Hmm I guess you are not aware that computers, laptops and mobile share the same technology and it is all moving at a breakneck pace.
"Still waiting for that list of iPad 2 specific games you mentioned"
Well you do your homework, you're the one who's denying there are games that doesn't work on the ipad1, and that there's going to be more of them in the coming months.. unless every developers in the world decides not to use the extra processing power in the ipad2?
"Apple sells the latest and greatest today, and last years model goes to the refurb store until they're all gone."
Not true, Apple keeps selling the old models in stores until there's no more left, and in that period they sell more old models because they are much cheaper (my source:futureshop/la source, ask your local stores).
"That 2g is just not going to be able to do all the tricks that a current iPod Touch is capable of"
How can you say that and still argue there is no fragmentation on IOS? ...
"Should hardware and software development slow down or stop because of this? And if not, what is the solution then?"
Either you create a platform and support it for many years (like a game console), or else it will become like computer games where you need to upgrade your graphic card every years to be able to play the latest games. Both methods have advantages and disadvantage : My 5 years old DS can play the newest games, but the graphic quality stays the same, where on fast evolving computers Crysis looks amazing. This goes for both IOS and Android.
"Is the App Store or it's users suffering at the hands of fragmentation like the Android Marketplace is?"
Yes they suffer when they can't use an app they purchased 2 years ago anymore because its been updated for the new system, and they need to buy a new one to use it again, just because the app store's owner said so.
"only 100,000 Xoom tablets sold since it was launched, why would a developer invest resources to focus on this tiny "fragment" of the market?"
Yeah you are right, why would developers invest time and resources to create software for OSX, Macintosh computers are only a tiny "fragment" of the market (which accounts for only 7% of all computers), meanwhile Microsoft sells 7 retail copies of Windows7 EVERY SECONDS (not counting OEM and pirated), according to your logic, developers should only support the most successful platform.
Comparing iOS to gaming consoles whose hardware is updated every 7 years? Well played.
Given several opportunities to back up your original statement, you provided no evidence about games that only work on iPad 2, and instead offered a mix of smoke and mirrors and straw-man arguments, going on and on about "the future" when you originally spoke of the present.
Apple has never used the "f" word to describe any aspect of their platform, whereas Google themselves did recently, and this is what sparked the broad discussion in the press, and the original post on this blog.
Overall, you've demonstrated in your comments that you have a very different idea of what fragmentation on Android refers to in the current debate, so I resign from this discussion.
Have a nice day and feel free to get the last word in, I won't be checking back. :)
Robert, I will take this opportunity to leave a last word, I've been following this thread and you discarded every titles Johnny said. There is fragmentation on both Android AND IOS, even if you won't admit this fact.
You live in a dream world, your arguments are nil.
go go johnny, go
Fragmentation does not exist on IOS. Google themselves said there is fragmentation on Android, but Steve Jobs never said there is fragmentation on IOS, so there, there is no fragmentation on IOS, deal with it.
^^^^
Nice try, but we all know this is not really me. I've been known to say dumb things, but this is not one of mine.
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